Why FreezeInstaUnlagged played better / was more fun than efreeze?
Section: EFREEZE Mod | Started by: impiro | Date: 18/05/2009 15:11
A picture of new score system:

http://g.imagehost.org/view/0102/New_Score_System



Before I post this, could somebody, after all these years, explain to me how I can but a space between to seperate subparagraphs from eachother? Thanks. No this thread will not be about flaming Efreeze!!!!!! :)


Ok so I have felt this from almost the beginning of efreeze, however after having a conversation with Necro today about the past of our community I realized how much I dislike efreeze when comparing it to the good old FreezeInstaUnlagged.


But, before I go on, let me explain to the newer players what FreezeInstaUnlagged is.
FIU was the predecessor of EFREEZE, the mod we are playing as we speak. When I first started playing on 1.31 almost 7 years ago, this was the mod that was played on most of the servers that runned freezetag. It was a simple mod that basically did the same as Efreeze does now however with a little features added to it and most importantly none of people’s lacking performances was blamed upon the mod itself.


Now before I start whining what is wrong with Efreeze, let me say that the biggest reason why I never complained about it like I am doing now was because I didn’t want to whine about something that other people are putting a lot of free time in for our beloved community. I really need to say that I really appreciate all the work and if it hadn’t been done by someone, it would have resulted in the death of freezetag on 1.31.


My dislikes:


1. The speed is to high, mainly because of the hook speed, and makes the game too easy.
Why did u guys make it so fast compared to FIU? It started with HoD running servers with high hook speed and all of a sudden it’s a main CFG setting. The high speed makes walking and quadjumping useless, and makes it possible to dodge 20 players by going retardmode with the grapple. It really makes the game too easy in public games. I also have the feeling that the overall gamespeed is too high aswell. In clanwars speed is owning tactic right now and for me it really brakes the fun.


You can see the prove in the scores of efreeze compared to FIU. Really they were, counted per minute about 10% lower most of the time. Plus a lot less people had those high scores. Now u can think maybe everybody simply got much better at this game, or maybe its because the speed has doubled?


2. Poor hitdetection and shotthroughs
Really what happened to this? I think there could be two reasons involved here. First of all efreeze aint unlagged but there’s something else. In the beginning of Efreeze I had 0 problems with shotthroughs and u didn’t hear a lot of complaints about it. But all of the sudden, like bit more than a year or two ago, I had huge ST problems. Maybe it because of the new force model options that were introduced that sometimes things get fucked up? Maybe its because on what a shot is calculated? Serverside or clientside of the shooter or clientside of the one getting shot. When I shoot my shot goes through the players, so it isn’t calculated on my side. Also it doesn’t always happen and only on certain players. Most of the time the ping I have and the ping of the player I shot through is not the issue.








The thing I loved about Efreeze, or more what I thought to love was the idea of take FIU and improve it like by adding models, more CFG options, maps and make it more stable. Now the first three have been done, however instead of making it more stable had is gone the other way and instead of improving a loved and nearly perfect system, it changed to much making it more of a whole new mod, than an improvement of the mod we used to play.


I hereby make a petition to at least TRY to use the old speed values again, but more importantly I want the hit problems fixed first. Those who do not want the low speed values without a reasonable argument are simply to scared to see a drop of performance. Plus imho I think old players have more of an argument than new players to begin with, since they most likely never tried FIU.


If I could learn programming or something I am willing to do so! REALLY. I got plenty of time this summer, so if you need anything from me to help to improve this mod I will immediately do it. Teach me.


READ MY NEW SCORE THEAD PLEASE! :)



(AGAIN, I apologize to the makers of efreeze for complaining. I just want to help improving and really apreciate all the work you did for us)

< br >, < p > (without the spaces)
impiro Told :
Before I post this, could somebody, after all these years, explain to me how I can but a space between to seperate subparagraphs from eachother? Thanks. No this thread will not be about flaming Efreeze!!!!!! :)



ROFL at the subject/post...

its true ;p


before i cud play on [RUS] Server or an american 1.31 server and not worry about ping when we used to have freezeinsta now with ef i cant play on russian server for definate. i just looked at server list. 2 decent ones instafrag and pl bedzie. pl bedzie i lag too much. Anything above 70ping and i feel so bad lag. and instafrag has that gay fast hook and is hardly ever popular anyway. and weed server is down (atleast right now it is).


kinda gay ef is dying :/ ive heard from many western european players they dont really enjoy playing because only really popular server is PL bedzie and people cannot play with the lags and enjoy it. + on say weed or instafrag (no offense to anyone who plays there) but most of the people who do are just random newbs and that takes away the enjoyment too.


even this forum. years ago there were so many posts in a day. Now few posts a day (thx monkey :D lol) and sometimes no posts for days on end.


well anyway this is how it seems to me right now.

yea i think its a good idea to switch it to unlagged, so we finaly can get to play at more then 2 servers in 1.31 xd


-qL1.

For me , i just would like to have servers with UNLAGGED settings. Coz it's so boring to try to shoot anyone and the shoot goes through due a lak of warp and lag.

So servers with UNLAGGED settings should be great. I know a lot of ppl who worked on efreeze will be a bit angry and disappointed but u can admit the fact of lags is rly annoying.

To play on RUS and PL server without lags and warps will be more fun than those server with them.

So i vote for Unlagged server like the old time :)
+1 about speed. How boring hookers are. You will answer "but sexy Svarog, you use it too !" The problem is not to use it or not, if you want a good score, you need to take profit of every advantages you can have. But I hate people who are using hook all the time without aiming anyone. They just run and try "sometimes" to hit someone with a random shot. That's not the way we have to play.
disagree with the hook theme. hooking is also a kind of a skill. some players can hook and kill simultaneously, like vax, doomy, and several others. speed is good. it adds drive to the game play. if i don't want speed, i play counter-strike then.
Drive to the gameplay? Hook hardly can be described as a suporting role imho. In FIU it was suporting, it wasnt extremely fast but it helped you gaining speed nonetheless. The fast hook isnt a mechanic to gain speed, it is speed itself. Therefore the quick hook is less of skill than a slow one. What Svarog and i meen is people who use it so rapidly without the intention to even shoot, but just to dodge..... The fast hook allows you to dodge rails extremely easy. If you want that fast of a hook and gameplay why dont use iCTF reload times aswell :S.


I make use of the fast hook too and i have a lot of hook battles with doomy in CW's :P, but I really dont see the skill in rapidly grapplign to anything you can, making you hard to hit, wait for the enemy players has made a shot that requires him to reload, and then kill him.





I hook like a maddman...
Wait for the enemy to miss

Enemy reloads, I take shot

Repeat endlessly.




A faster hook makes this game EASIER, not better. Just because some players are able to do stuff with doesn't mean its good. $horty of WoD could really cool tricks with slow hook in some maps. I would liek to hear more opinions. So far most players from FIU times seem to prefer the slower hook. IMHO the speed in this game is too high, especially as we play slow rail.
There is no balance

atrey Told :

disagree with the hook theme. hooking is also a kind of a skill. some players can hook and kill simultaneously, like vax, doomy, and several others. speed is good. it adds drive to the game play. if i don't want speed, i play counter-strike then.

Posted on 19 May 2009 at 20:53:41


hooking isn't kind of a skill anymore. It was, when hookpullspeed was 800 and there was 400ms delay between another hookshot. Now it's like... spamming rockets/grenades on CA? :P


 


1. Gamespeed: it wasnt changed... It's 400 as it was in freezeinstaunlagged... Why? coz railing on 320 ( especially on fiu ) was easy... im not sure but one of [RUS] servers had 320 UPS.


2. Poor hitdetection: Yup, i was fighting with that since efreeze 1.1(beta) was uploaded to servers, but nobody believed me :)). ATM they believe me for about 1.5 year and None a'ka Pasztetka promised to fix it, but he is paua and has no time.


Anyway i would like to see opinions about hitting on bedzie and hitting on another server ( with similiar pings ) coz i've a bit other netcode.


3. Freddy, i think it's not this unlagged :P


I dunno if you mean unlagged as "lowping smooth servers/players" or netcode which is trying to help us


About unlagged as kind of ghei idea for netcode:


 Unlagged isnt really unlagged. Ah, and freezeinstaunlagged wasnt really unlagged =P. As old admins say, it was just freezetag with renamed folder, lol. But i dont believe it in 100%, coz long time ago i was talking with Lyor and he had same feelings about shooting on freezeinsta and freezedt ( on fiu it was like u play on lower ping, but it wasnt that gay as instaunlagged1.1 or ufreeze/cpma are )


and about unlagged 2.0: totally useless with 12v12. I tested efreeze with unlagged netcode. In this sentence, i would like to thanks Atrey, who was my enemy in during tests. I had acc around 60 % with pinf of 120-150ms...


And again, i forgot about "unlagged isnt really unlagged". Let's call it "im gay and dont want predict". Nothing more. When u play 30vs130 on unlagged mod, 30 pinger has a lot higher advantage than on non-unlagged mod. Why? Coz even if both shot in same moment, informationj about shooting will come faster from 30pinger... On unlagged you must see enemy before shot, but when u see him, he sees you, right? Then u have no chance... In "lagged" (or how we should call this,lol ) mods you dont have to see enemy, just predict, shot, go away. If prediction is good - enemy is dead. And there's same situation too - 2 players, 30 and 150 are shooting in same moment - 30 is killing 150, coz of ping advantage. Same thing as on unlagged... but high pingers have no advantage like "i can shot somewhere, maybe i'll hit enemy".


 


unlagged as smooth servers without warps:


World is still going bigger, blablabla, connections are more loaded than 7 years ago. Even if connections are faster, quality isnt as good as it was... Ofcourse not every one :)


 


 anyway Impiro, i noticed u want back to basic mod/gameplay/settings blablaba, but in other topic, you're trying to promote some strange frag-counting system. The question is: WTF?

Adam I do not dislike Efreeze and I also am not against changes at all. In fact FIU had lots of points it could be imporved upon. Efreeze did some, but also made some things worse. Like higher hookspeed and poor hitdetecion are bad. So it is not like i want back old times....or mayeb a little :P


The new score system is to make the mod more fun and to seperate the skill from the noob. Bonus points are actually added value of a players skill. I want to make the mod more intersting to play in public, and not boring liek its kinda now. Awards and Bonus give players a goal and rewards them for doing something good such as teamplay. The score system is something many players have thought about it seems, so i hear from reactions by people and they like it so far i think.


I do not want to go back to FIU, I want Efreeze to be more like FIU when it comes to gameplay. I want slower hookspeed so the game is balanced again :).


The new score system is imo an improvement that doesnt effect gameplay its just a small thign that makes the game more fun and engaging. I hope..mayeb it will suck in practice you never know :P


but i see we are on the same page about the hook adam, its just hook madness these days.

well, adding more fun... Depens what people like...


What is fun? Having top score or shooting and killing enemies ? It's just rail - there's less fun than in all wp mods :P if people dont care much about score, they won't notice difference.. BUT:


1) It will create new campers like "ZOMGZGOMZG im last! Free 5 frags! i must camp to the end! OMGZOMGZ fuk off, i will camp forerververer!"


2) (eFreeze) CTF has alternative score couting ( like 2 frags for defending base, I never saw an orgasm due to double points, lol :P


anyway, there was long time when we had 2 bedzies in netherlands, first with FIU and second with efreeze(beta), good old times...

stop those crazy long posts :P just say F1 or F2 with a short version of your thoughts xD.



k so: F1 because i only learned how to use the hook to keep up with those that started playing on fast hook. i still prefer playing slower and thinking while doing so. with the fast 400 ups + fast hook its all just about being the fastest one exploiting poor hitdetections etc. to dodge and then hit with some luck or the little aim most new guys have. in every other mod accus are about 40 - 50 % (except for those with railjumps maybe) and that really makes one think (me at least). lucky i have my unhooked 1.16 to get my mind of ef :p.

Read it better Adam, you dont get 5 free frags :P. As last man u only get +2 bonus per frag. Because its hard to be last man, especially in public with 12 vs 1. Plus only 1 thaw will give u a 10 point bonus when you are last. Bcause when you thaw, you are not the last anymore.But this discussion is not for this thread. Anyway so far many F1's on slow hook :)

to be honest i like the hookspeed on bedzie or FN (instafrag its to fast)


if youd change it i might aswell play 1.16n or go back to Red Faction really sinds thy dont use hook..


hook is what make FreezeDT, Efreeze and similair mods special in the first place..


if you take it away or make it to mutch slower.. theres no use to hook


 


*note*
everyone is used to this hookspeed at the moment. 


Just my 2 cents


vax

well if your honest playing good whilst hooking is a skill. there are not many players that are ACTUALLY good with it. only players i can think of are say tokz vax shark doomy etc. It is a part of many peoples gameplay right now. I dont have a problem with hookspeed itself just on INSTAFAG server. wtf is that hook speed at all :s . There are two contrasting styles of play on efreeze and i think thats what makes it interesting and fun.


i dno but i remember both freezeinsta and 1st versions of ef (beta and 1.02) and both of these were good and had no problems. Even back then american players played in efreeze like minky or warnell or fifok (correct me if im wrong) and they could play pretty well with however the shooting system was then (unlagged or not). Maybe a return to the shooting system of earlier freeze mods like FIU or early efreeze or freezedt (even if they were not technically "unlagged".)


Like i said quite a lot of western european players are not getting to play or do not enjoy freeze much right now because their ping is high on the only popular public freeze server. This will probably just simply force them and deter them from playing efreeze because nobody really plays on weed cw or instafrag. with my ping on bedzie im at a disadvantage and find it hard to play there so i simply do not. when i play public efreeze it is on weed cw or instafrag with the random newbs on there and it really is not fun. There are many players who are also in the same boat as me. Just sayin there would be quite a lot of people lost from the mod if something isnt done about this and the fairness of playing even with a slightly higher ping. Like i said i used to be able to play on american servers like EMS and RnR FIU and freezedt servers when they were on 1.31 and also the old [RUS] Server. Now ive got no chance of playing with pings like that lol ;p


you think someone can play with high ping and do things like this now??? (like hah)



or something like these shots also





i know lupus got 16 thaws but still means he got 15 kills with that ping. With current efreeze playing like this with this ping just isnt possible. U see that screenshot lupus's nearly everyone playing high ping. I bet they are not complaining because of their ping giving them lags.

About the "people are used to it now". I was used to SLOW hook for 4 -5 years......and they changed it.


Saying Slow hook = equal to no hook, lol. A hook adds a whole new dimension to the gameplay LOL. You can move up in every level with hook. Without hook you will have 2 demensional gameplay, now you have 3 dimensional. But the problem is now, that the 3rd dimension is FASTER than the original two dimensions and that is just plain stupid. You liek the speedfull hook than why dont make the reload times faster, run speed faster. Because that would only be fair. Right now it is unbalanced.




Changed opinion about this discussion in 5 minutes :P

but hod server was always full and one of the most popular efreez servers. maybe that was due to the hook... i mean if hod was the 1st ones to put in faster hook and it caught on and was made default maybe it was done for a reason...

impiro Told :

Read it better Adam, you dont get 5 free frags :P. As last man u only get +2 bonus per frag. Because its hard to be last man, especially in public with 12 vs 1. Plus only 1 thaw will give u a 10 point bonus when you are last. Bcause when you thaw, you are not the last anymore.But this discussion is not for this thread. Anyway so far many F1's on slow hook :)

Posted on 20 May 2009 at 07:45:09


5 frags was just to maximize the problem =PP


 


@xenon:


Except "high score with high ping" we should remember that enemies are more skilled than 4 years ago... :)


Anyway i've screenie with Kretu on the top _during clan war_ with ping of 130... he had 10 frags more than second teammate with 30ping.


anyway, you're right about that it's harder to do it now than some time ago :P


 

Well HoD was popular mostly because of his ping. Plus there are always more unkown players in a server than known, so I can see why are newbs would like things to be easier.


But eventhough I stand for my opnion, and a lot of others with me. I think Vax actually does have point. I see no way of gettin slow hook without splitting the community and dissapointing people. We have it now, so we must live with it and I get that.


So maybe we should end just end the hook discussion and focus more on the hitdetection problems.


Atrey said he is working on it and i appreciate it a lot. So lets hope it end soon

About Impi's new fragsystem: F2 is some1 don't want to read why.
One question. What do you want so many bonuses, awards etc for? If you like to collect something like that, try quake live. There is a lot of awards (I know, they r not in-game, and they are not changing the gameplay, but still...) waiting for you, ofcourse if you will play all weapon, because instagib servers seems to be unranked :) To be honest, I don't see ANY reason to get some bonuses etc while I'm playing clanwars... It wont make me happy. I know if am I important for my team, how many team-scores were thanks to me etc and every1 who's looking on the match should know that. And high-scores + some good accuracy is enough for me. Well, I wont even talk about using it on public games, because that's a totally pointless for me then.


About hook speed: Instafrag server - too fast, FN, BB - good compromise between fiu and instafrag server.
Hook speed on instafrag server is really too high, I think it's not good if some1 have good ping there, he wants to play there, but the hookspeed is so much different that on fn/bb servers, and he can't get used to one speed? Sure, you can try other settings etc, but only when you have a lot of other servers to play with usual settings...


About unlagged:
It's hard to choose... Sure, shots are going through now, what makes me really angry sometimes, but if you want to import something like they have on NoGhost, it would be just too easy and too lucky? I don't remember this 'shooting through' problem in older ef version, or maybe I'm just wrong.


I'm not sure if you care about my opinion, but I'm not so active especially on this forum, so here's it. No offence, yours Burzyk.
I'll talk about speed on insta to admin. About impi's idea, it could surely add fun to give some extra bonus for funny tricks like combo shots. Even noobs will get extra bonus and get some fun. +1 for my lovely impi
The whole score system is not for clanwars, ofcourse lol... just for fun in public. What is the point of NOBODY CARRING what team wins...I dont see it just playign the same map time after time and the guys who is on top always get the GG comments....Boring. GG should go to people who really played best. Bonuses do...Its not many bonus at all relatively since a frag is 5 points worth. Well i guess nobody want the point system or any changes to this mod. Because this mod its just PERFECT...... :S. Its just so much fun doing the same thign over and over :D
Yes, it is just booring, you are right, but your ideas (you are quite creative btw) wont change anything... And no1 told me GG after map even if I won it from long time ago! :p If you want to change something, seriously try quake live with all weapons, much more fun, much more stats :) And for me playing only clanwars is enough here, atleast as long as I've got some oponnents to play :) But ofcourse if you will change something, I will be pleased to check it out.
Just watch out for his fridge Impi, Burzyk once wanted to put me there : D
I merged all the latest changes into ef-1.02 version. So, it basically should do hitdetection/shooting as th old-style efreeze. Anihil spawned a special testing server running the updated mod. 87.230.35.114:27777. You can download the mod for testing here.

good job atrey ;]]


cant wait to get home to test it :)

An what about your own feeling, Dmitry ?
Updated mod link and here also.
Svarog Told :
An what about your own feeling, Dmitry ?

Posted on 21 May 2009 at 15:17:35


Can't say yet. I'm at work and don't have access to the test server.
OK so we'll see. Thanks anyway
Need laggers on this server 87.230.35.114:27777 to check the difference 'cos for me it's the same

the shooting feels better much better,, no shoot throughs at all


just played it with reaper in nM he liked it also


good job atrey :D f1

I was loving shooting trough :(
can you make a force model just for me? some red spots that looks like freckles? :)
for using it just replace the efreeze core with this that has been given and ur forcemodels and everything is still there